insurance. >> welcome back to the weekend everybody. >> we begin this. >> hour. with two major. developing stories connected. >> to the trump administration's crackdown on immigration. the fbi. >> arrested milwaukee judge. hannah dugan. >> yesterday. >> accusing her. of obstruction after. she allegedly escorted. >> an undocumented. >> man and his defense attorney through a nonpublic jury door. attorneys for judge dugan said she has committed herself to the rule of law and.

>> the principles of. >> due process for her, for her entire career, and that she looks forward to her exoneration in another courtroom. >> more than a. >> thousand miles away. a federal judge in louisiana is sounding. the alarm over the apparent deportation of a u.s. citizen to honduras. >> a two year. >> old little girl. the trump appointed judge, terry. >> dougherty, has scheduled. >> a hearing for next month to address what he described. >> as. >> quote. >> our strong suspicion that the government just deported a u.s. citizen with no meaningful process. joining us. now is democratic. >> congresswoman maxine dexter. >> of oregon. she just returned from. el salvador, where she and her colleague were advocating for kilmer. rodrigo garcia. >> the maryland father. >> the trump administration. >> admits it mistakenly deported. welcome, congresswoman. >> let's start with the judge. because i was particularly concerned when i heard about

this arrest. and then i went and i read the affidavit, the criminal affidavit that is the explanation that the justice department put forward on the proof, if you will, of why this these charges are being brought. and i am concerned that the administration is not being on the up and up with us on this. what is your response to this arrest? >> this is. >> just more of. >> the same. >> this is a. >> progression in an authoritarian regime where we are now. >> deporting citizens. >> without due process. >> and whether it's transparent. >> or whether it's in the shadows. >> the fact. >> of the matter. >> is. >> a citizen has been deported without due process. we have every reason to. >> believe that. >> has been happening in other parts of the country. that has not been getting the. >> attention that maybe it should be. nothing's verified. >> yet. >> but absolutely, we are in a constitutional crisis and a. >> very dangerous. position right now. she's asking though, about, sorry, there are a lot

of. >> judges. >> a lot. >> of. >> cases here, but. symone is asking about the judge. >> that was taken in by. >> i was talking about the. >> arrested. >> a judge. i mean. >> that's that's. >> the bottom. we just saw a judge arrested. >> that's the thing. sorry. i was talking about. >> the child. let's go back to judge. judge in milwaukee in a second. but let's talk about the child, because, alicia, we talked about this this morning, and alicia noted that, again, the government might not be on the up and up here. can you just explain what you. >> told us? you have you have. >> folks, as you well know, who are immigrants in this country. >> some of. >> them here undocumented. but they're on ice's radar. they regularly go. >> in for meetings where they're. essentially wellness checks. >> where. >> you know, they make sure that the family is okay, that they're. >> where they say. >> they're supposed to be. they're doing. >> the. >> right thing. it is my understanding that one of these families shows up at their regular meeting with their attorney. the attorney is. >> not allowed. >> into the room, and they are told in this meeting, which is

supposed to be a. >> routine meeting, that they. >> are being deported imminently. there is a question of whether or not that mother who went into that meeting waived her parental rights. and that is part of the reason that the u.s. citizen child has now. traveled with her. but you got a dad in the united states who's like, where's my wife? >> where's my kids? >> the inhumanity of it and the lack of transparency, the fact that they are weighing people, whether it is abrego garcia, whether it is these families out of louisiana. there is a through line from that, through the fact that all of a sudden you have. >> federal law. >> enforcement agencies taking in a judge without explaining or providing evidence for what they believe her crime was. >> no, absolutely. a federal judge being. >> taken into. >> custody without. >> clarity of what? >> the charges. or why. >> what infraction. there has been is. without question. >> a very dangerous signal about what's happening. >> and i agree. >> with you.

>> it's a through line, like. >> the people willing to. protect immigrants. >> from being deported. >> without due process. >> are the target here. >> can we talk about. >> your trip? >> so you. >> go to el salvador. i think it is very interesting that republicans have been willing to fund official delegations to send republicans to the border and to other countries. they were not willing to fund your trip. so you went sort of on campaign dollars. this was in a different capacity. you went with a lot of questions. did you receive any answers? >> the answers we. >> received were vague and without clarity. i'll just say that we were briefed by the embassy. we were left with the impression. >> that no. >> action had been taken to facilitate. >> the return. >> of abrego. >> garcia. >> or anyone. >> from el salvador. >> no action will be taken. >> i think. i think we. >> we need to start. >> speaking in these. matters with. >> the clarity of what what donald. >> trump is telling us, what his. administration is. >> telling us. congresswoman. >> and, you know, i appreciate

your taking. >> the along with several of. >> your other colleagues who've. >> gone and or are planning. >> to go. >> to sort of. >> raise this up because to your point, alicia. >> republicans are. doing what republicans do. >> donald trump says, sit your behind down in that corner and. >> shut your mouth. >> they're going to. >> sit their. >> behind down in the corner and shut. their mouth, even. >> though they watch a judge being hauled off, they watch a two year old american. citizen being deported. >> and we hear nothing and. >> we will. >> see nothing. >> so how how. do you, in your capacity. >> as a member of congress right now. >> in. >> the minority. >> elevate these. >> conversations by your. >> actions and your and your. >> words to the point where people really. >> appreciate that this administration is doing nothing to bring this man home. >> and we'll do as mr. abrego. >> garcia, and we'll. >> do as little. >> as it can to return that two year old child to the united states. >> yeah, i'm a critical.

>> care doctor. my whole training is. >> to respond when someone's sick. >> this democracy is sick. and so i have to use every tool at. >> my disposal. >> and your attention. the press's focus on this is necessary for the public to understand what's. >> at stake. >> we are in an emergency situation here, and there is a absolute difference of opinion, depending on. the media that you're watching or the understanding that people have. this is a constitutional crisis. i can't pass legislation to stop this. we can't impeach the president, which he clearly has. >> and you. >> just don't have the numbers. >> we don't have the. >> numbers in the minority. so what we can do is focus on what his actions are, make sure people understand that abrego garcia's family's nightmare could be any. >> family's nightmare. >> and. >> that this country is supposed. >> to afford folks, whether. >> you are a. >> citizen or not. due process. i thought this was very alarming. >> this is from. >> the same. we've been talking about the interview that time magazine did with the president

about his 100 days. i want to read you the question that was asked of him. and then his answer. the question was, mr. president, whatever he meaning abrego garcia might have done, whoever he might be affiliated with, doesn't he deserve his day in court? nazi saboteurs who came on our shores at montauk during world war two had their day in court. al qaeda terrorists had their day in court. and this is what the president says. that's not my determination. it's something that, frankly, bringing him back and retrying him wouldn't bother me. but i leave that up to my lawyer. i'm curious who he thinks that lawyer is. i assume it's pam bondi. is his lawyer here? you could bring him back and retry him, but i leave that decision to the lawyers. at this moment, you just don't want to do that. they say. they say we're in total compliance with the supreme court, a court that has said you. >> need to. >> bring this man. >> back, which is which is just exposes the lie. >> it exposes. >> two things. >> either he has no idea. >> what he's talking. >> about, which is probably very true. >> or the. >> lie that, you know. well, we're doing what the supreme court told. >> us. >> and that's obviously not true. so where do where do we.

go here? i mean, this. >> is the frustration. >> i think, of a lot of people, what. >> do we do? we're watching all this. >> unfold. and seemingly it's almost like it's. >> slow motion. >> yeah. right. and you just it's like you're in this, this vat of, of gelatin that you're just trying to pull yourself out of. and it's. just you just stuff is just not helping you move forward. and that's why what you do as a member of congress, despite the fact that you're in the minority. right. that almost. is irrelevant in, in many, in many ways, because your position, your authority. that's right, is founded in the constitution. right. so when you speak on these things, it should matter. and that's why when you go to. el salvador, it's important because we know your colleagues won't know. >> and some of my. >> colleagues will. >> absolutely yes. >> i don't. >> yes, the.

>> democratic colleagues will. >> right. and we must we must continue to go because someone said one of the attorneys for one of the people detained said, we are arrestable like we have the ability to go and to be defenders. i'm not sure that we're on arrestable, but if anyone it is, we are again taking action and not. >> sitting back like this is a. >> moment for leadership. and to your point, the president is just deferring his commitment, his oath to defend and protect the constitution of this country. that is absurd, that he is just listening to a lawyer telling a lie that everything's fine with the nine zero supreme court ruling. >> i know we have to go, but we've heard a lot from republican senators, specifically lisa murkowski, you know, pulling the player back and talking about how they're scared. are you scared? >> i'm you. >> know, i'm not scared. >> my husband. >> he's worried. he was very. >> concerned about me coming back. >> the fact of. >> the matter is, i didn't. come

to congress to. take up. space and to sit back and watch our country go under. my children are 18 and 21. they're both on college campuses right now. seeing what's. >> going on. >> we have to take action. and if our leaders. >> are not willing. >> to do it, who is right? it's a moment for us to stand up. >> all right, congresswoman. >> maxine dexter, thank you. really appreciate you coming in. >> up next, we'll dive. >> deeper into the arrest of. >> that milwaukee county judge with joyce vance and lisa rubin. with joyce vance and lisa rubin. >> you're watching the weekend. [birds chirping] [dog growls] ♪♪ ♪ who knows what tomorrow ♪ ♪ will bring ♪ [dog barking] ♪ maybe sunshine, ♪ [dog whining] ♪ and maybe rain ♪ ♪ but as for me ♪ ♪ i'll wait and see ♪ [knock at door] ♪ and maybe it'll bring my love to me ♪ ♪ who knows ♪ ♪ who knows ♪

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>> find your perfect fit at where. >> pepper comm. >> peace is. >> what we want, but peace through strength. >> what should. >> democrats be focusing on and how should they be doing it? >> what are your fears. >> as this. >> disinformation makes its. >> way into the. >> bloodstream. >> of america? >> no president, certainly this century or last, has ever done this. >> morning joe, weekdays 6 to 10 on msnbc. >> let's continue our conversation with the latest immigration trump headlines on my ifb. so if somebody was talking to me. but joining us now at the table are former u.s. attorney and co-host of sisters in law podcast and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance, and msnbc legal correspondent and host of msnbc's can they do that, lisa ruben? okay. please help me

understand. >> can they do that? >> can they. >> do that? yeah. >> so this is this is what's going on. judge hannah dugan in milwaukee, a judge in milwaukee. she was arrested. the fbi arrested her. and this is what? the attorney general's statement. the attorney statement on behalf of judge dugan says. attorney general dugan's statement says this. the judge's statement. judge hannah dugan has committed herself to the rule of law and the principles of due process for her entire career as a lawyer and a judge. judge dugan will defend herself vigorously and looks forward to being exonerated. the white house, the department of justice. they are saying that this judge. was illegal. yeah. that she did that she committed a crime. a felony is what they're saying. >> that she did. the. >> the. >> escape of this individual that they were there to. >> apprehend, that. >> she took them. through a. you know, a back door away.

>> from the dea. dea, d. >> d a. >> dea agents. so that's that's that's the nub of this thing at. >> this moment. >> the affidavit. >> says, but the. >> affidavit. >> that criminal affidavit that the that the department has to put forward themselves is their explanation of why they're bringing these criminals, quote unquote, felony charges, underscores and notes that the man in question was in a public hallway that dea agents and a dea agent saw the man in a public hallway after the judge allegedly ushered him out of the secret door. he was in the hallway with his attorney. they observed him. they wrote an elevator with this gentleman. and then only after riding the elevator. and the man is outside of the courthouse, do they attempt to arrest him. help me understand why the judge was arrested and why the department of justice is saying these things on national television that fly in the face of the reality of what they put in their own affidavit. >> yeah. i mean, there's so much wrong. >> here that it's very

difficult. >> to know where. >> to start. >> first off. >> this notion of the arrest in the courthouse. >> you know. >> the fact that. >> they held back, that they didn't arrest. him once. >> he was out of her courtroom. they make a lot about the fact that she ushers him out this secret door. it's not a secret door. it goes back into the public part of the courthouse where they see him. they could have arrested him. the fact. >> that they didn't suggest. >> that maybe they had some. >> concerns, that. >> they knew it would be better to be out on the streets. federal law enforcement typically doesn't make. >> arrests in this setting. >> in state courthouses, because it really. >> tamps down. >> on the. ability of law enforcement. >> to protect communities. >> witnesses won't come forward. people won't go. >> to court if they fear this sort of thing. so that's. >> sort of one big. >> bucket of issues. >> but to the. >> point that you're making about whether or not we can credit what's in this affidavit. i would say it's a pretty slick, glossy version. >> of what happened. >> you know, they obtained. >> the warrant on thursday. >> they seal it, they arrest the judge in her courthouse. they don't go to her home. they wait

and arrest her at work. clearly an effort to intimidate judges across the country. right? trying to force compliance. >> but they don't. >> go to a grand jury. this is. >> just a warrant signed by. >> a magistrate judge. and it makes you wonder if they didn't believe a grand jury would have returned. >> an indictment on. >> these facts. >> right? >> the charges are pretty slim. there are some technical legal issues that i'm sure we'll be discussing over the next few days about how they will pan out, but the reality is. >> this is politics. they took in a judge without having gone through a grand jury. that's the point. >> and let. >> me tell you one more thing that makes this. >> so appalling. this is not. >> a case. where you. make an arrest. you go to the grand jury. >> you get. >> an indictment, she shows up, right? if it's a legitimate case, by doing this in her courthouse, in front of her colleagues, in her community, i. >> think they wanted. >> to intimidate that. >> thank you.

>> thank you. that's where we. there. we. >> there it is. all right there. yeah. >> this is the administration basically. >> telling the judges. >> who have been ruling. against this administration. >> for the last. >> month. you're next. >> you bet you. >> we don't like what you're doing. we're going to take this little. state judge. right in this. >> little no nothing case. >> no, they don't give. >> a damn. >> about this guy. >> that they. >> went after. he's not. >> the target. >> he's not the target. >> the target is the judge. >> he's a. >> good foil. >> and that's because of the crime that he's accused of. turns our conversation away from rodrigo garcia or some of the people who have been sent to el salvador, where they are languishing in a notorious prison. and instead, we're talking about the judge who allowed a man who has already been deported once and is now being accused of domestic violence crimes. that's who we're talking about now, the judge who allegedly opened the

door and let the guy who's been accused of domestic battery escape. they know that this allows them to flip the narrative in a way that they feel is advantageous for them, and that's why they're talking about it on tv in a way that the department of justice doesn't usually talk about their cases, that other agencies don't talk about cases. why? because it's prejudicial to a defendant or an immigrant to have the full force of the government on television staring down, you know, the camera and saying, this person obstructed justice to have an attorney general say that about a sitting judge is a complete reversal of how we are used to federal law enforcement operating in this country. >> it goes beyond that. can we play this sound of. >> of pam bondi on fox news? >> they're deranged. >> is all i can think of. i cannot believe i. >> think some of these judges think they. >> are beyond and above. >> the law, and they are not. and we're sending a very. >> strong message today. >> if you are harboring.

>> a. >> fugitive, we don't care who you are. >> if you are helping hide. >> one, if you are giving a tda member. >> guns. >> anyone who is illegally in this. >> country, we. >> will come after you and we will prosecute you. >> from the criminal complaint against duggan, officers and flores ruiz, the man in question, were in the same hallway. after leaving the judge's vestibule and returning to the public hallway. dea agent a reported that flores, ruiz and his attorney were in the public hallway. dea agent b also observed flores, ruiz and his attorney in the hallway near courtroom 615, and noted that flores ruiz was looking around the hallway. but pam bondi said, if you are, if you are giving, if you are helping hide one, harboring a fugitive, those are not things that actually happened. what is going on? >> and can i just before. >> you to. >> dovetail on that, let's just go also from the criminal complaint against duggan where you have regarding a. >> judicial warrant versus. >> an administrative warrant, and. >> this is important. judge

duggan asked the deportation officer. >> a. >> had a judicial. >> warrant and a deportation. >> officer a responded. >> no. i have an administrative warrant. >> judge duggan. >> stated that the deportation officer. a needed a judicial warrant. >> deportation officer. >> a told judge duggan that deportation. deportation officer a was. >> in a public. space to. >> simmons point and had a valid immigration warrant. so help us understand what these two pieces, out of their own complaint says, relative to what simmons put on the table, is like. y'all seem to be caught in a lie here because you're saying one thing, pam bondi on national television. to your point, putting a nice final. >> fancy gloss. >> on it, but your own. document that you put in the court system says something different, your own complaint? >> yeah. i mean, this is the whole mess that we're talking about, right? this clip that we see of pam bondi. >> kash patel. >> the director of the fbi, posted on twitter, this is all

in violation of very clear doj policy. you're not permitted in a case of an indictment or a complaint to go to the press and talk about anything that's not in the four corners of the document, because it prejudices the defendant's rights. we will probably see a motion to dismiss this case outright. if this was a normal justice department. pam bondi, kash. >> patel. >> anybody else who was talking about this case. on national tv would be referred to the office of professional responsibility for disciplinary action. this is not a functional justice department. so the dirty laundry will come out in the wash in these proceedings, where the facts just don't add up. right. was he in a public space, wasn't he? >> they didn't. >> have a judicial warrant. that matters because it means there wasn't a finding of probable cause made by a judicial officer to authorize the arrest of this this gentleman who was in the judge's courtroom. now, look, is he a savory guy? it sounds like

there were issues. he was there on domestic violence charges. i mean, no one is holding up his conduct as as the kind of conduct that we think is laudatory. but the point is, we live in a rule of law system where everybody is entitled to due process. and what we are learning is that if people don't get due process, none of none of us are safe, right? if we don't have the ability to go in front of a judge and say, i'm an american citizen, or i wasn't the person that you think i was in this case, then we have lost our most fundamental rights and americans are waking. >> up. >> to that. >> it all comes back to two words. no matter what the narrative is due process. >> it just it. >> is the core of what. >> we're going through right now. >> joyce. lisa, stick. >> around because we want to discuss the federal judge taking a stand against trump's executive order on federal elections. >> this is. >> of the weekend. only on msnbc.

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overhaul federal election law and disenfranchize voters has run into some. >> legal troubles. >> a federal judge has blocked part of the president's executive order that mandated potential voters show proof of u.s. citizenship when attempting to register. in her ruling, the judge said, quote, our constitution entrusts congress and the states, not the president, with the authority to regulate federal elections. >> joyce and lisa. >> are back with us. what did. >> you make of this? >> i thought that it was a very good distillation of the constitutional issues here. right. you cannot just simply do by executive order what you feel like and ignore the separation of powers, principles that undergird our entire constitutional system. and that's what judge kollar-kotelly is saying in this 120 page opinion. yes. but she is essentially saying, look, you might think that it's a good idea to require proof of citizenship in order to be to register to vote. but you can't

just do that by presidential fiat, because constitutionally, statutorily election administration is the province of the states and congress. and you can't just whisk that away from him. and when the white house says they are trying to nullify an election, these judges. well, if somebody campaigned on the premise of, i'd like to execute a bunch of people and judges said, no, you can't do that because that's unconstitutional, we would all clearly agree with them, right? because that's clear. but here the difference is null, right? it's essentially the same thing. what he is saying he was elected to do, to the extent that he has a mandate to do that, is thoroughly unconstitutional. the powers that he thinks he was elected to carry out aren't powers that any president ever had. >> but the judge, joyce. >> did. >> did decline to block other parts of. >> of trump's executive order. >> no. >> including one provision that gives. >> the department. >> of homeland security and doj's enhanced power to search

for alleged noncitizen voters on state voter lists. another provision that was not. >> blocked penalizes. >> states that allow ballots to be counted after election day, so long as they are postmarked by the day of the election. so to your point, lisa, about that, that, that balance. that between what the. federal government can. >> do and what. >> the states. are constitutionally. allowed to do in the, in the province, under the province of, of elections. >> this judge was kind. >> of walking that line saying, okay, there are certain things that, yeah, you can do with respect to how ballots are allowed or how ballots are counted, etc. >> so as. >> an appellate. >> lawyer, i love this decision, right? this is not a case where the judge had a knee jerk reaction and just said, forget it. i'm tossing the executive order 120 pages. she goes through this is this opinion is just a masterclass in how the branches of government are

structured, the authority presidents have over the election machinery that the series of laws that have been passed by congress that are in legitimate spaces. and so she then reaches this conclusion. there's some of the claims that are brought here. right. this is primarily brought by the league of women voters. it's actually three consolidated cases. but she says some of these claims are premature. you got to wait until more happens to bring these claims. i'm not going to allow them right now. there are some other issues that get set aside. but the big one here, the requirement that you show your papers in order not just to register, but every time you have to reregister to vote, right. if you're a student and you move, if you're an older person and you're in a nursing home, right, you have to reregister. if you don't have a passport, which which costs 130 bucks to get right. i'm from alabama. i know a poll tax when i see one. and so that's the part that she disallows for now. this is of course early times in this case. this is an injunction

that keeps the president from enforcing the executive order, which actually directs an independent election commission to do the dirty work here. so it can't go into effect while this litigation works its way through. >> the court. >> so important note then. so, well, i guess what i'm hearing is that she didn't she didn't weigh in on these other provisions that we noted, like the states about the ballots. but she didn't she didn't weigh in and say that it was okay and this was not okay. it's like these are some parts that we didn't touch. we only focus on these parts. >> but also it's important to note that a number of states attorneys general have separately sued over this executive order. and through that litigation, some of the things that judge kollar-kotelly said she couldn't touch, because the organizations that brought suit here didn't really have standing to challenge them. those are going to get fleshed out in this parallel litigation brought by the states. >> actblue. >> i want. >> to talk. >> about actblue. but i also can i. >> just say. >> i want to. >> pick up on something that you said, which is. i see this. >> all when. >> i, when i visit.

>> x periodically to see what it is they're. talking about. >> over there. i hear a lot of something that you wove into your answer, which is for. >> those who are still a part of trump's base, saying. >> how is it possible that in these. >> united states, a judge. >> can just overrule something that the democratically elected president. >> has decided. >> like, i am not certain that they are making they're not making a legal argument. they're making a political argument, and their political argument is landing. i do want to make sure that we also talk about actblue and the fact that you have the justice department now going after actblue investigating actblue huge fundraising platform for democrats. is this anything other than his trying to hobble the political infrastructure of his opponents? >> you know. >> this is why presidents don't have authority over elections to the point we've just been discussing. right? because they could control the levers of power and manipulate elections. presidents aren't supposed to tell the justice department when to start a criminal

investigation and who to investigate. and it's very clear that there's far too much of that going on here for any of us to be comfortable with this investigation. the justice department, you know, knows how to open a case. they know how to investigate. there is still a public corruption unit at the justice department, although, frankly, pam bondi has peeled off most of those resources and devoted them to immigration. right. in the case we were discussing earlier, the fbi agent who wrote the affidavit that was an agent who used to work public corruption, and now he's in a courthouse arresting people on immigration charges. so there is still space, apparently, to do these cases, but only when it's a platform that's used by democrats. and that's the sort of a case, an investigation that, from the get go, really has a real stench to it. >> can i add one thing? if this president were really interested in rooting out foreign corruption in elections, maybe he would have let the southern district of new york continue with what judge dale ho called a

perfectly righteous and valid case against the mayor of new york, eric adams. >> well, john adams said, we are government ruled by laws, not men. time as the president. did he agree with that? the president said, i wouldn't agree with it 100%. we are a government where men are involved in the process of law, and ideally, you're going to have honest men like me. >> well, we'll we'll choke on that. >> joyce vance. lisa rubin, love you both. good to have you at this table. next, the afl-cio has been holding hundreds of events around this country protesting the trump administration. the federation's president is going to join us at the table after a quick break. you're watching the weekend. >> actually. >> you don't need. >> vision to. >> do most things in life. >> yes. >> i'm legally blind. and yes, i'm responsible for the user. >> interface, data visualization. >> if i can.

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judge saying he will release a full opinion in the coming days to explain the order. but this isn't the final word. attorneys have until may 2nd to submit proposals for how the case should proceed. now, the trump administration's dismantling of the federal workforce has been a key issue in the massive protests we've seen all across the country for the last few weeks, with tens of thousands taking to the streets in demonstrations. now, one of the organizers of those protests, afl afl-cio president liz shuler, joins us now. welcome to the table. >> do you know elon musk and some of my republican friends? i'm michael steel, but the other ones say that these are paid protesters. the protests are organized when we say you are organize the protest. can you just break down for the folks at home what is exactly happening behind the scenes? is george soros paying for this? >> well. >> and here's. >> the other thing. so for the republicans out there who think that, why don't you all go and

join up and get paid for the protests and then you can expose it, right? >> yeah. >> this is ridiculous. >> these are people who are hitting the. >> streets who are actually. >> outraged at what is happening, because they're seeing their services being cut. they're seeing friends and family losing their jobs. this is rippling out across the all communities across the country. a lot of people think that federal workers are all in washington. >> d.c. there's. >> some, quote. >> bureaucrats. >> you know, data on a spreadsheet. these are real people. and 85% of. federal workers actually are outside of washington, d.c. so they're seeing. >> the effects. >> and they're outraged. and in fact, we had some hearings just this last week at over 400 places across the country at with our department of people who work for a living. >> we said. >> if elon musk can have his department of government efficiency, we can have our department, the department of people who work for a living. and we're holding these hearings. and, you know, hundreds of people are showing up, in fact, in albany right now on a saturday to talk about the

impacts of these cuts. and so these are real people. these are not paid. >> and i care. >> about those. >> real people. >> i also want to make clear to folks, though, that this has impacts for the rest of us who may not be federal employees may not even be in a union. there was some great reporting from the new york times about the cost that it is costing the american taxpayer to do all of these firings. the partnership for public service, a nonprofit organization that studies the federal workforce, has used budget figures to produce a rough estimate that firings, rehiring, lost productivity and paid leave of thousands of workers will get ready for this cost. upward of $135. billion this fiscal year at the irs. a d.o.j. driven exodus of 22,000 employees would cost about 8.5 billion in revenue in 2026 alone. that's according. >> to. >> figures from the budget lab at yale university. >> this is. >> bigger than the. employees themselves. >> absolutely. >> this is rippling out across

communities. and as you said, whether it's productivity losses, because people are terrified. >> to show up to. >> work and, you. >> know. >> their intent of. scaring people and dehumanizing them is working. >> you know. >> they're they're worried their id badges aren't even going to work when they show up to work. it's, you know, a form of mental stress that no one should have to endure. to the folks who want to ensure that their food is safe, their water is safe, that veterans actually get the health benefits they need when they come back home. that's what our federal workforce provides. >> and everyone. >> is connected to someone. >> it's the. >> aspect of this that i. >> appreciate and find very important. is what happens on the streets. and so, you know, we've talking at this table for much of this year since the inauguration, especially. >> about how. >> this is going to manifest itself. how will people respond? have we just been beaten into. >> a dull. >> submission and just sort of

sit back and accept the crap. >> that's coming. >> out of this administration and watching our our neighbor. >> get fired. >> and, you know, not concerned about what happens to his family or her family. and what we're seeing is that's not true. and it's really important to note that the guardian makes about the protests. it says what is so often dismissed as performative music drums people parading with handmade signs to have their photos taken by others. it's not a matter of collective narcissism. rather, it has been recognized by many modern thinkers, starting with rousseau as an important part of building community, politically inspired and inspiring festivals are not some frivolous sideshow. they allow citizens to experience each other's presence, their emotional dispositions. many, many are seething with anger and their commitment. and the point being that what you and other organizations like yours are out

there doing, galvanizing people, giving them a space in which i can make a sign to express my frustration with what's happening to me that's healthy, that's good. and the fact that we're seeing that should be a warning sign to those in. >> power. >> because you may want to dismiss it as, as, as some type of performative narrative or some narcissistic. and donald trump should be very familiar with anything related to narcissism and appreciate that you you're going to pay if you ignore. and i think that's important that you're on the streets. how is that organization of all of that activity coming along? and is there more as we move into the summer months? and going back to what we were talking about before, the real, real life impact of prices and lack of product on shelves begin to hit families. it's not just the firing now, a fire now. i can't even go out and get the stuff my family needs.

>> that's right. and it is about freedom of speech. it is about being able to express frustration and come together with a community and amplify your voice, because you as an individual, don't have as powerful a voice, but you collectively do. and so this is what we're seeing, and it's a form of protecting our democracy, if you think about it. because the minute we start squelching freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, that's when authoritarians take root. and so we're trying to educate our members. we're trying to show people that that's a muscle that you have to build up constantly. you have to be out there. because if you're not, if you're silent, then that's when these things go too far. right? and so i'm encouraged because all those signs, all those people showing up are making a difference. and if you think about the success that we've just had with some of these recent court decisions, with the fact that elon musk is silently and slowly creeping out of doge and. >> back. >> to tesla, you know, the fact that some of these executive orders have been rolled back.

>> or. >> you know, preliminary injunctions taking place, it's all because of the pressure. and that pressure comes from the people. >> amen. >> liz shuler. >> thank you so much for stopping. >> and this morning, i really appreciate it. >> a quick programing. >> note starting may 5th. okay. circle that on your calendar. you can catch the three of us at our new brand new time on a brand new show called the weeknight. we'll be still be bringing you the roundtable conversations you've come to expect from us, and we'll still be challenging leadership and each other, but we'll be doing so on mondays through fridays, 7 p.m. eastern, right here on p.m. eastern, right here on msnbc. we'll b (husband) we just want to have enough money for retirement. (wife) and travel to visit our grandchildren. (fisher investments) i understand. that's why at fisher investments we start by getting to know each other. so i can learn about your family lifestyle, goals and needs, allowing us to tailor your portfolio. (wife) what about commission- based products? (fisher investments) we don't sell those. we're a fiduciary, obligated to act in your best interest.

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>> we can't predict when rates will drop. but while you wait, the perfect home is selling to someone else. with over half a million new listings every month on realtor.com, find the world's most precious resource? wifi. and the wifi is booming. boom! -b-b-b-boooming!! booming! -booming. the wifi is booming. xfinity. listening to rachel maddow's chart topping series. msnbc original podcasts, exclusive bonus content, and all of your favorite msnbc shows now ad free. subscribe on apple podcasts. >> you know this. i just want to do a quote from pope francis. embrace humanity that seeks the truth with with a sincere heart

and holds high the torch of hope. and i think so much of what we witnessed early this morning with his funeral and internment at, at the cathedral, at the basilica of mary major, really kind of reflects this sense of humanity, humility and the recognition of others. i think that's been so much. a tell during his papacy is how we stop recognizing the humanity in others, which. allowed us, have allowed us to behave the way we've behaved towards the immigrant by a lot of people who profess christianity, seemingly blindly misreading, misinterpreting, not even understanding what the story of christ was with respect to immigrants and migrants. himself

a refugee. et cetera. and how he treated others. so i just i appreciate that much about what the pope in his, in the spirit of his papacy, left for us. now the lesson hopefully learned, we can pass on. >> i want to pick up on the last part of that, the hope. and, you know. you said something earlier that. >> i. >> disagreed with. i never thought in my life i'd agree with you. >> as much. >> as i do. >> michael steele. >> you said. >> something briefly. >> that i want to challenge, which is, you know, and i get what you were trying to say. which is we. >> need to. >> start saying that garcia is not coming home. right. we need to, like, be honest about what this administration's intent is. i actually feel very differently, which is i feel that we have. >> to say he is. >> absolutely coming home to have his day in court. >> with due process. >> as. >> was guaranteed. >> to him in the constitution. >> because if we accept. >> that he is never coming. home to his wife. >> a us. >> citizen, and to his. >> three children, all u.s. >> citizens, then we. >> are accepting. >> that fate for the rest of us, and it simply cannot be. and so i know.

>> but that was not my point. my point was, you cannot get to where you are unless you recognize in the first instance exactly what the obstacle is, because they want to paint this picture, that there is. >> no hope. so therefore. >> don't even bother talking about it. my point was, y'all need to recognize that you need to. you need to ingest that into your system and understand that, not you. feeling your gut is the fact that you've just been told he's never coming home because you're the rest of you is telling you, just as you just articulated, no, no, no, no, he's coming home. >> look, you know, we're on the heels of the pope's funeral, so i'm going to be good. but i feel very strongly that let me just say this. i was at a i'm a member of the links and the eastern area conference was is happening right now. and i was at the civic luncheon yesterday and they were giving these awards to women who have just been doing yeoman's work in

their communities, folks like doctor wendy willcox for women's health, the doctor simmons, who founded esmeralda simmons, who founded a legal clinic at medgar evers college that is doing work on civil rights and advocacy. and at the end of the event, i was just like, i looked out in the crowd and i told people, i said, look, everybody keeps talking about what's happening on the other side. when we get through this, there is not a guarantee we're going to get through this unless people fight, unless the realizations that you both just laid on the table, people are willing to internalize and do something about unless people take up the mantle that pope francis literally challenged the world with, we're not going to get through this. and i'm not trying to scare people, but i want to be very, very honest that it's not just going to be okay. this is a country and a democracy that we are going to have to fight for because the people in charge, they don't want us to have it. >> you're not scaring people. you are motivating people. >> and that's. >> what we intend to do here. >> that does it for the weekend.

this saturday morning, be sure to join our colleague ayman mohyeldin tonight for special coverage of this year's white house correspondents dinner that begins at 8 p.m. eastern on msnbc. the three of us will see you back here tomorrow at our usual time, 8 a.m. eastern, for our final show on the weekend. up next on velshi, guest host charles coleman jr will be speaking to congressman adam smith about the chaos at the pentagon. that starts right pentagon. that starts right after a very quick break. oooh! beak's up! [gasp] we're trapped by dishes. don't worry. they've got new dawn powersuds. it'll power through this whole pile with ease. yeah, it's the dish soap with two times more powerful suds. (giggles) lucky ducks! dawn's first suds that trap, lock and remove 99% of grease. so it doesn't get passed from dish... to dish. cleaned and stacked. like ducks in a row. heh. good one. new dawn powersuds. the better grease getter.

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